shapechange vs true polymorph

We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. @JeremyECrawford What happens if a wild shaped druid is reduced to 0 by disintegrate? Before you read this guide, read the Polymorph spell description on the 5e SRD. A difficult CR. The creature cant activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment. This one is a little disappointing because Shapechange is way more generous about what you can do with your gear if you cast it on yourself, but given that this is also supposed to function as Uber Baleful Polymorph I guess it makes sense that you wouldnt want to let the person youre turning into a standard turtle continue wearing their Robe of the Archmagi. Theres nothing really surprising here, although one thing can be a bit confusing. And true polymorph allow changing creatures into objects and vice versa. Would it be possible to only half transform into a monster? Worn equipment functions as normal. I don't mind piping in that tabletop and a mud are different in the respect that tabletop ends when the dm is no longer present but a mud runs with an automated design at all hours. by Tarven Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:00 am, Post It might just be easier to balance the skill levels between the two spells and make them identical, its not canon but we are not unknown for compromising in the name of balance. Giving this some more thought is certainly more I'd like to see, along with everyones, The third problem is skill ups. All of this detail diving violates KISS principle, which is why I tried to focus on the "spell effect" and its unusual " and your equipment too" detail as significant. "Note that the verbiage of the phrasing means you can attempt your Con save and IF you fail it, just use one of the Legendary Resistances. You lose class abilities, feats, racial traits, etc. Choose one creature or non-magical object that you can see within range. Shapechange targets self, where true polymorph can target others. It seems this was errataed to be the other way around; from Sage Compendium (p. 13): "What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate ? If a Dragon under the effects of their Change Shape feature is cloned, can the cloned Dragon revert to their true form? If the Power Word Kill spell is cast on a Polymorphed creature, what happens? Wild Shape also comes into the game much earlier than those spells. you arent knocked unconscious. To my understanding, this -is- the primary mode of combat, travel, etc. Please enable JavaScript to get the best experience from this site. Outside of combat, the target is likely friendly to their allies, but is likely driven by basic animal stuff. The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. Theres no right answer here. Should be about cr 27 if I remember correctly or atleast ancient gold dragon cr. 1.0, How to break the game with Animal Messenger (starting at level 3), AMFES: Summer 2, Now with Digital Tokens Included, 2020 Holiday Ornament and Black Friday Sale, If this is your first visit, be sure to When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. ok, yep, so the definitions of Truesight and True Seeing are different. The Sage Advice Compendium supports this answer from a RAW perspective: What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate? Could a subterranean river or aquifer generate enough continuous momentum to power a waterwheel for the purpose of producing electricity? there's still true res if you die even without clone. You're just a whatever. Why favor Disintegrate? If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the targets (or its level, if the target doesnt have a challenge rating). You can turn an object into any kind of creature, as long as the creatures size is no larger than the objects size and the creatures challenge rating is 9 or lower. Now use the ghost to magically age the shadow dragon into an ancient gold shadow dragon. Practical Guide to True Polymorph and Shapechange DnD 5e, Ancient Brass/Crystal/Deep/Topaz/White Dragon. During this spell's duration, you can use your action to assume a different form following the same restrictions and rules for the original form, with one exception: if your new form has more hit points than your current one, your hit points remain at their current value. But you would still be an "average example of the creature". If a dragon uses Change Shape to turn into an Evoker, does it gain/have the material components for its spells? What is Wario dropping at the end of Super Mario Land 2 and why? You do not get the chance at a death saving throw, nor to stabilize in the disintegrate case. What happens to the target of a "permanent" True Polymorph spell when its caster dies? This site works best with JavaScript enabled. As long as the excess damage doesnt reduce your normal Essentially, a druid like this would be able to stay shapechanged -indefinitely-. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Or at least thats what youd think, if you hadnt read this Sage Advice. ); Just not at the hour a level suggested here. Speaking of gold, this is an even better way of breaking economies than Wish, which is impressive. Per the tweet linked, it appears that both Polymorphed cretaures and Wildshaped Druids would revert, rather than turn to dust, as RAI. You turn back into a lvl 17+ Wizard. We'll look into beefing up shapechange vs. polymorph at that time. I think freeing shapechange from Polymorph's duration constraints and list of available creatures (elementals, magical beasts, etc. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. Already we have more clarity than True Polymorph, although that comes with some frustrating limitations. One amusing thing you may have noticed that you cant do with True Polymorph is turn objects into other objects. Yeahhh.. What are you talking about? I think it goes off of the players total level, so in your example, they would be able to become a CR 20. depends on the DM's decision of whether they would be considered a construct or something more unique I suppose. and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. The creatures statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form. * (a jade circlet worth at least 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head before you cast the spell). You go to the 0 HP rule if you are a PC. rev2023.5.1.43405. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isnt affected by this spell. (RAW). Should they change the rules or release something 'official' in regards to this, then I would abide by that, but at the end of the day, it still all comes down to what the individual DM decides works or doesn't work. You decide what action it takes and how it moves. The targets game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. On the other hand, if you go for any printed stat block of appropriate CR, suddenly I can turn myself into named beings like Ogremoch. drop to 0 hit points. Monsters and Death I also go into some of the pitfalls and point out where vague wording can be problematic so that you can hopefully work out what these spells can and cant do before you cast them. If the null hypothesis is never really true, is there a point to using a statistical test without a priori power analysis? With the target creature's stats in it. The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower. But if you save against the BW? However, CR 0 provides the best disable forms and many of the best scout forms. The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if by Nylo Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:47 pm, Post If you transform into a Marilith, you can still speak and have hands to make Somatic gestures for those types of spells. You could also True Polymorph someone else, and they would be free to polymorph into something else. You effectively lose everything but your personality. Since all other creatures die at 0 HP (unless the DM makes a special case to have them follow PC rules) that shouldn't influence the above. While True Polymorph allows any creature, Polymorph only allows beasts, so this section will analyze available beast forms. The targets gear melds into the new form. the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. Now, in terms of power, neither True Polymorph nor 5es version of Shapechange hold a candle to Wish. your normal form. Just because your character knows the hand wiggles and latin necessary for casting Wish does not mean that your assumed form has the wellspring of power within to be able to make it happen, any more than if you taught the components to a random farmer. Keep in mind that nothing prevents the wizard from making his clone in case he dies while in his TP form. What if, again, its a golem that you ordered to protect something and it sat for an hour doing absolutely nothing? The druid turns to dust, since the spell disintegrates you the instant you But sometimes you want to break the world in other interesting ways, and True Polymorph is a great way to do so. You assume the hit points and Hit Dice of the new form. As we all know, Hex is a really useful spell. Maxman If it is misused, it should be addressed. You may also want to read the Shapechange and True Polymorph spell descriptions, but understand Polymorph is more important since it is more limited, and once you grasp Polymorph you should be able to apply that knowledge to other spells. Jeremy Crawford confirmed that you are still yourself. * (a drop of mercury, a dollop of gum arabic, and a wisp of smoke). Thus reaching 0 HP will cause you to revert as will death. by Hrosskell Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:08 am, Post I seem to recall that matters. If we are going to follow SRD for almost everything as a standard, then we should adapt it for shape change. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Why refined oil is cheaper than cold press oil? The whole spell is so vaguely worded that basically any casting of it starts with an argument with your DM, so Im going to try and provide some clarity here. Got to agree, thanks for that. As a result, this question has been closed as a duplicate of another question that asks how these 2 spells interact as of the 2018 errata. "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies.". Does he revert to normal physical form? The GM has the creatures statistics and resolves all of its actions and movement. Well, no. Obviously if you aren't concentrating you don't have to worry about breaking concentration. That's actually a perfect point and suddenly perma TP is valuable again. You cant use any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form. Why the obscure but specific description of Jane Doe II in the original complaint for Westenbroek v. Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity? A lich is an undead, not a humanoid or beast. Can True Polymorph create creatures with the Spellcasting feature? My bad on this one, I set the wizard testing polymorph to the wrong skill level. Is there a general rule that covers interaction between effects that cause death at 0 hit points and features that prevent death at 0 hit points? According to the Polymorph spell description, death will revert you to your original form with your original HP (with extra damage carried over). Do you lose Concentration upon beginning to cast a Concentration spell, or upon completing casting a Concentration spell? You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. True Polymorph didn't exist before 5th edition and is an odd combination of Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange that has the notable distinction of being permanent if you can concentrate on it for the full hour. and perceive the original form of a Shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. With that said, I hope that this article helps if you are among the tiny fraction of players or DMs who ever get to cast high-level transmutation magic. Polymorph (both regular and true), Shapechange, and Wildshape all have a consistent rule of reverting to original form when 0 HP are reached, and can be summarized as follows: If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. That's what incalculable power is for. Can you only turn into the age category of Brass Dragon that you, personally, have seen? It only takes a minute to sign up. It acts on each of your turns. An Answer for Everything: The 3.5 Shapechange Handbook ( direct link) 3.5 Summoned Creature SLA Lists (indexed by SLA) 2017-03-11, 03:37 AM (ISO 8601) Spoilers. Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. Nerdarchy the News Letter- http://nerdarchynewsletter.gr8.com/Polymorph, Shapechange, and Wildshape- D&D Spell and Class Feature Discussion| D&D Player TipsW. The creature cant be a construct or an undead, and you must have seen the sort of creature at least once. High level transmutation magic offers some of the most tempting and easily abusable magic available. Does the druid simply leave beast form? Depending on how you have treated it. What a fun clause to start yet another argument with this spell. Being able to use a bonus action to transfer the effect to a new target makes it a great bonus damage dealer. There is no best form; every problem requires a different tool. Now, if we again look to the specifics of this spell versus True Polymorph, then this would seem to imply that, given that you cant use lair or legendary actions when you Shapechange, you can when you True Polymorph. form to 0 hit points, you arent knocked unconscious. Monstrous Compendium Vol 3: Minecraft Creatures. Apparently, RAI is in opposition to my argument per a tweet from Mr Crawford (Credit to @Airatome for this tweet): Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford Jeremy Crawford Retweeted Joshua Would that then let it take priority? I would personally try to fall between the two but closer to the lax end (because this is a 9th level spell and the game left the rails behind long ago at that point). well that depends .. there are 2 cr 30 monsters tarrasque avarage on attacks is 24 28 32 so dc 12 14 16 all almost guaranteed pass with the stat you mentiond. "Legendary Resistance (3/Day). Shapechange lets you keep changing into something else for a fresh set of legendary resistances and 1 or 3/day innate casting spells. Would the material component of this spell be replaced by a spell focus since it doesn't say that the circlet is consumed? You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). Some will argue that this would move the "balance" in the direction of "unbalanced" or "too powerful." Portions of the materials used are property of Wizards of the Coast. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the targets (or its level, if the target doesnt have a challenge rating). When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit Druids have the Wild Shape feature, and although numerous textual references refer to this ability, at no point (that I can find) are they specifically called "shapechangers". Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. Skill levels go up to 25, after all. This allows you to do some interesting cheese where you cast a Contingency Dispel Magic and say When I think unmorph me of my own free will, cast Dispel Magic to target the True Polymorph running on me, then live for up to just shy of 10 days as an Ancient Brass Dragon, flip to human for a moment, and go back to being a dragon. Those are the two big differences I see on a quick glance, there may be more if you dig into it. I'll correct my answer. Spell Tags: You can turn an object into any kind of creature, as long as the creatures size is no larger than the objects size and the creatures challenge rating is 9 or lower. If you revert as a result of points you had before you transformed. Legendary Resistance is a perfectly valid tool you gain access to. That's my take on it, though I will point out that Jeremy Crawford is a D&D dev. I support this - I'd like to see duration and possible forms changed to SRD. You, however, lose your own features and spells, and (arguably, although there isn't any rule specifying this) you'd be limited to casting non-concentration spells because technically you're concentrating on True Polymorph. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a non-magical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus listed in its statistics is higher than yours, use the creatures bonus in place of yours. It may not display this or other websites correctly. You're a level 17+ Wizard and you cast True Polymorph on yourself to turn yourself into a CR 17 Adult Gold Dragon. If a player said they were going to start training to become a wizard again, I'd say "yep, you certainly try to gain wizard powers". @BlueMoon93 Thanks, not sure if I can revive it; this is a good example of why it is important to avoid a link without a summary/sample of what's there. @JeremyECrawford What happens if a wild shaped druid is reduced to 0 by disintegrate? Hex and Polymorph/ShapeChange. Unlike every other polymorph-type spell or ability, you maintain access to all your class features (including spellcasting). -. It depends on how you look at it. Like lower CRs, CR 1/4 is too weak for combat forms. All of that is part of the pile of dust. This gets weird when we have multiple stat blocks, a la dragons. Im going to list a few great options for Undead and Constructs here since I cover everything else down in the Shapechange section. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. True Polymorph, Dragon Change Shape, and True Sight interaction. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. You could see it as one of two things, though they both have very similar end results: a) The body simply disintegrates, and stays that way. If the same attack that causes a druid to revert from Wild Shape also reduces their maximum HP, what happens? Tiamat however the other cr 30 monster has an avarage of 28 24 32 67 88 77 91 and 72 jeah dragon breath attacks are almost guaranteed to make you drop this (altho if it hit you without this you and your d8 hit die would probably loze most if not all hp) this goes for all dragons and all creatures with breath weapons or dmg dealing special abilitys tarrasque doesnt have thissince it is more of a impenetrable defense monster so you kinda used a bad example. by Tarven Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:13 pm, Post Dragon Breath Weapons are NOT a guarantee to drop this because you forget that you can save for 1/2. The ability is usable a few times per day, but it is based. Civility in answers is a high priority on these boards so please consider referring to content in answers rather than referring to "you people" which can be interpreted as belittling: Dropping to 0 HP won't outright kill you in all cases if you are a PC. When exactly does a concentration spell end from casting another one? Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This passage at the very end of it's description is what sets it apart. There are several things that posters in this thread don't seem to realize about True Polymorph: that would likely become a DM discretion thing. You can however keep using True Polymorph to turn into various creatures with spell slots, and exhaust them all. It turns out we are both wrong. It retains its alignment and personality. Alright, so this means that, if you have any equipment you really care about, youre going to want to keep yourself to medium size and probably humanoid-ish. Does it use its culture? Did it enjoy being used for the purpose for which it was made? This means that you would not gain the Spellcasting trait since the "Introduction" to the Monster Manual clarifies (emphasis mine): A monster with the Spellcasting class feature has a spellcaster level and spell slots, which it uses to cast its spells of 1st level and higher (as explained in the Players Handbook). What about mundane illusions while awake? Can an object created by True Polymorph be used as a consumable spell component? (That's powerful magic). A few last thoughts. by Raona Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:27 pm. What about if you change it in ways that dont damage the product though? Creature into Creature. It retains its alignment and personality. This means that when your wizard polymorphs themselves into a tyrannosaurus, their Intelligence drops from 20 to 2. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated. But what about their personality? You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so. That's the biggest advantage - True Polymorph can let you create a decently strong companion if you decide to turn an object into a creature. is there such a thing as "right to be heard"? Have fun erasing the existence of every monster in the MM. The tension between the specific rules, over the general 0 HP rule, exists because Polymorph spells also overwrite unconscious because you don't fall unconscious when you revert to old form if the damage taken doesn't also exceed your normal HP. Once permanent, the spell is over. Shapechange states that you turn into a typical example of the creature withoutthe Spellcasting trait, but Crawford has confirmed on twitter that you would keep your ability to cast your own spells because that comes from your class features. You recover your uses in the span of an in-game day. 3) You can use an action to change forms during your Shapechange. Wow, this is the part of the spell thats so good. Equipment that merges has no effect in that state. Wizard. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled. Right now I believe it is correct to say they are identical save with respect to what races are allowed as targets. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. The spell effect changes a creature into a non-creature substance: dust. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. You can only speak if the creature can normally speak. The Polymorph would not be able to reverse the disintegration spell since it isn't a True Resurrection Spell, or a Wish Spell. What differentiates living as mere roommates from living in a marriage-like relationship? Random's articles include the the Armor Artificer Handbook, the Hexblade Warlock Handbook, and the Practical Guide to Magical Secrets. Unfortunately, the highest CR beast is currently the Tyrannosaurus Rex at CR 8. Lets take a look at each paragraph in turn here. The targets game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. You get the same benefits of Polymorph but there are a few key additions: 1) You can cast spells and still use your race and class features if your new form lets you. For future readers' reference: the answer to this question changed due to the 2018 PHB errata, so the existing answers here may have been rendered inaccurate by the change. You cant use any special senses you have (for example, darkvision) unless your new form also has that sense. The warlock casts True Polymorph, turning the bard into an Ancient Brass Dragon (possibly even one that can cast spells). And you are allowed more than one use of this per day. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated. So a brass dragon cannot change shape into a lich. The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower. Does a Clone spell work on a (True) Polymorphed creature? The Ancient Gold Dragon's Change Shape ability has an additional clause (emphasis mine): Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form. ", @Kashir on page 14 of SA compendium Crawford provides a RAI and RAW PoV, which is why I have two answers. The advice offered below is based on the current State of the Character Optimization Meta as of when the article was last updated. But then they will encounter the same problem if they try to do it a second time. 2023 Wizards. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell. Manage Settings Allies may need to use Animal Handling to direct the target (they are a best now, after all). Role-playing Games Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for gamemasters and players of tabletop, paper-and-pencil role-playing games. It doesn't sound like the circlet would be consumed, BUT if the spell specifically states a component and a value like this I am confident a spell focus isn't enough to cast and you would be required to wear the 1500g + jade circlet at the time of casting the spell. However, it may be helpful to pick a few staple forms which you use repeatedly. Can I use an 11 watt LED bulb in a lamp rated for 8.6 watts maximum? Does Disintegrate reduce the a Polymorphed target to dust first or does the creature revert to its regular form first? If so, to what effect? result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to We will not include 3rd-party content, including content from DMs Guild, in handbooks for official content because we cant assume that your game will allow 3rd-party content or homebrew. You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad, Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com, http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/rue-polymorph/, The Fighter (redesigned with more than swinging a weapon in mind, uses inspiration dice), The Thug (Hybrid Barbarian/Rogue) ver.

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